Friday 11 December 2009
So, let me get this right then?
If I understand most of the guys who have taken time to write on here, you are equally as frustrated as I am. Surely, together we could put some pressure on the appropriate people to fund more officers in problem areas (if someone told me to pay an extra few quid in tax in order to make my life easier, I'd not bat an eyelid!). It seems you are as pissed off with the situation as me (probably more, because you do this for a living and then you read stuff like this when you're off duty). As for the bloke in a cell who has taken umpteen pills..... GOOD!!! Give him a few more!
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I absolutely guarantee you that, were funding for 'problem areas' to suddenly appear, it wouldn't be coming your way.
ReplyDeleteThe previously mentioned 'sink' estates will always attract any such extras for it's here where targets are met and missed.
Hi there.
ReplyDeleteIf its ok with you, I have a fair bit to post, so I'll split it over a few entries (blogger restricts to 4096 characters)
First, I can empathise and sympathise with your situation. I live near to a local tesco express where gangs of kids congregate, half of them pissed, the other half high as a kite on spliffs. Makes a trip to the shop a really pleasurable experience (Not!)
For ten years I was a copper in parts of Birmingham riddled problems. I left the job frustrated with how public confidence in the police faded despite the best efforts of the front line troops to make the area a better place for the locals.
I am now involved in a business that brings me into regular contact with victims of crime. I started a blog to try and raise public awareness and to help bring the front line police views into the public eye, so as to try and exert some pressure on the powers that be.
I know your main concern is what is happening now, blighting your life. However, it may help to understand something of how things have got this way.
I left the job after the introduction of something called PACE. a piece of legislation meant to ensure crooked coppers couldn't fit up the bad lads. The intentions of PACE were honourable, but it tipped the balance in favour of the crooks. Even the best coppers expressed frustration at how villains were now able to twist the process to avoid justice.
Without wishing to express political opinions, the state of society and the police infrastructure has worsened dramatically under this government.
• We are lied to about crime reducing every day. It’s not in Government interest to admit the truth.
• Senior police officers are paid handsome bonuses on top of six figure salaries to show crime has reduced in their area. Make up your own mind as to whether this affects the accuracy of crime reporting.
• Police bloggers have to blog anonymously, because their regulations do not permit them to express political opinion or grievances, even if this is in the public interest. If exposed, their careers would be at stake.
• Meanwhile, the upper ranks, who live in gated properties, miles away from the threat of anti social behaviour, are the only ones allowed a public voice. They are often completely out-of-touch with reality and disinterested.
• The front line officers job today is a damn sight more difficult than twenty years ago. They have no discretionary power, are swamped with bureaucracy and risk averse policies and processes imposed upon them by a combination of Government, senior officers and think tanks who are always coming up with new projects. These projects invariably involve taking the officer off the street for more time than he or you would like.
• Twenty years ago we had riots and strikes to contend with, but the public were happier with how we dealt with those situations than the anti social and criminal matters of today. This is because of all the crap the front liners now have to contend with that has worsened down the years.
• All of this is down to money. The tax payer coughs up millions every year and if the front line copper had his way, it would all go to putting strength on the streets so they could do the job the way we all want. The money is poorly managed at best and at worst, spent on the wrong things like PCSO’s. There are 16,500 PCSO’s but they have no power to deal with crime and disorder. The same fund would be better spent on 12,000 full time coppers who could use their powers more efficiently.
• The front line copper, with all the bureaucracy and obstructions struggles to get the job done within the 8 hour shift, so often has to work overtime, a lot of it unpaid. Governments latest answer? Slash the overtime budget by £70million!
see next post . . .
Continued . . . .
ReplyDeleteIn our own small way, we are trying to help by exposing the stuff like this that we find. Like you and the police bloggers, we have to fit it in around our working lives, but personally, it matters enough to me and my colleagues to commit the time and effort.
If you want to see what we're trying to do, skip over to our pages at http://thinbluelineuk.blogspot.com
We are not bound by the anonymity of the serving police guys, so we try and speak up for them in the hope it will deliver reforms that make a difference.
The site contains links to the most read police blogs and our pages are visited regulalry by the bods in Westminster.
From our experience, we find that the majority of front line police officers are committed and hard workers, who are frustrated as hell not to be able to deliver the kind of service we want. I know that doesn't remove your problem, but hopefully, by reading some of the articles on our pages and the police sites we link to, a deeper understanding of what prevents them doing their job may help persuade you that they really do want to be on your side.
As an aside, all credit to you for taking the trouble to create your own blog about problems on your doorstep. By piecing together bits of the picture, we can only hope that the authorities will act.
We are building reams of reports and information, from police officers, members of the public, in fact anyone who is concerned with the decaying state of our society. We regularly present our findings to the media, and carefully selected supportive senior officers and politicians we believe will make a difference.
Any suggestions and contributions are always welcome.
Hope things improve around your way soon, or failing that after the election if new brooms are able to sweep clean.
Steve
Steve, thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to post that. Very informative.
ReplyDeleteI know deep down that the police officers are in no way to blame for what happens outside my house, and indeed in many other areas - I'm not silly enough to think for one moment that my problems are ever going to be the top of anyone's agenda - the thing I have a real problem with is the attitude of certain officers - when I (as the innocent party) take time out to actually report something (as I'm told to, no matter what it is!) am spoken to like I'm some kind of crank and questioned by officers, I'm afraid I see red.
After one such conversation, I started this blog and if I thought the libel laws of this land would have let me get away with it, I'd have posted all their details, log numbers, names, pack drills etc - but had I done that, (despite every word being true) I've no doubt that they'd have found a bit of extra cash from somewhere to slap a nice little writ on my doorstep!!
I know a little bit about PACE as I've worked in law for 20 years and I know it's been a bone of contention.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of the decaying state of our society. It really hit home to me the day that I actually laughed out loud when the scrote kid known around here was killed in an RTA. I honestly did laugh. And then I rang my daughter and told her how ashamed I felt of myself, she said "Forget it mum, it really is one less nutcase to cause you misery" But I still felt bad.
Several people on here have said I ought to do something further, but after 3 and half years I really don't think I could do much more. The people I really want to get to are the parents of these kids and if the kid are already like this, what difference is a conversation with me going to make to them? The behaviour has probably been passed down from their parents so I'm at a loss to know what I could do.
I think back to when I was a child, and to the days when I'd genuinely cower if I saw a police officer even though I'd done nothing wrong, and I'd never dare give cheek to a neighbour in case it got back to my parents. Very simplistic but it bloody worked! I'm not saying I brought up my two that strictly but I must have instilled some of those values into my children because they have grown up into 2 wonderful adults that I am fiercely proud of. There are millions of families who can say the same thing as me, but there are also ones who could never say it, and the problem is that they actually don't care that they can't.
Hi, it's me again,
ReplyDeleteTwo parts to this message.
I agree with your sentiments about certain officers attitude. Like every job, the police have always had their good and not-so-good.
The obstacles placed on front liners through the years make the job even tougher. The Government impose massive burdens creating over 3000 unnecessary extra offences, performance targeting that doesn't work, endless bureaucracy, the introduction of civilian box tickers who know little if anything about how to handle public concerns properly and political interference at every step.
The police have, by their own admission, become so afraid of crossing the politically correct line that they have become risk averse, leading to endless seemingly pointless questions they are forced to ask to protect their backs. Until the Government removes its negative influences on the use of sensible common sense, discretion based policing, the situation will not improve.
The police have to deal with the consequences of decay in our society but the cause lies, as you so rightly point out, in the parenting and how they educate their children about authority figures.
Your reaction to the demise of the scrote is a human and natural initial response. If more people were honest, they would I'm sure admit to similar reactions. That doesn't make you a bad person or that you should feel ashamed. We used to call it "Gallows humour" a coping strategy we all use from time to time.
The difference is, with these scrotes, when hearing of the death of an innocent person, or a police officer, they laugh openly and express delight at the news, many wishing they had caused it. These people are the under class that exist in every society, who we describe on our pages as having no moral compass. They cannot see right from wrong in word or action and this culture gets passed through the generations.
In the early hours one morning, I came across our most troublesome scrote. After the preliminary search and making sure he hadn't done something I could lock him up for, I got talking to him. I asked how he could spend his life robbing. His interpretation of wrong was getting caught. If he got away with it, it was a job well done, there was no perception of honesty, no trace of a moral compass.
The underclass and the culture problems that blight our neighbourhoods needs tough treatment. The gentle touch doesn't work with them, they see it as weakness and exploit it.
part two...
ReplyDeleteI saw an article that was absolutely spot on. It referred to a book written by a Dr Aric Sigman. You can see our version of it at :-
http://thinbluelineuk.blogspot.com/2009/09/spoiled-younger-generation-is-spoiling.html
His book explores the erosion of discipline, respect and civility in the youth of the UK and the negative effect it is having on society. He accurately captures the growing sense of unease felt by a large percentage of the UK public. He said “Children of the spoilt generation are used to having their demands met by their parents and others in authority, and that in turn makes them unprepared for the realities of adult life. This has consequences in every area of society, from the classroom to the workplace, the streets to the criminal courts and rehabilitation clinics”.
He suggests that children & young people’s rights must be curtailed and a firm hand is urgently needed if they are to be properly guided into adulthood.
The police see the consequences of the "Spoiled Generation" every day on the street of the UK. If politicians are sincere about wanting to fix our society there is no better place to start than by instilling some firm handed forgotten disciplines within the spoiled sector of our youth.
For this to work, there must be a punitive responsibility imposed on parents who let their kids roam like wild animals in our neighbourhoods. Unless it is documented that a parent has reported an inability to control their offspring with repeated failure to respond to behavioral improvement, the parent should be held equally responsible for the crimes of their kids. I believe it's called vicarious liability. How many scrote parents would be prepared to go to prison for the actions of their kids? I suggest it would have a marked improvement on our society in a short space of time.
There are signs that some of the messages are getting through, but its a long and obstacle ridden path to reform. But we have to start somewhere and our blogs are part of that journey to once again making the UK a pleasant place to live.
All the best
Steve
Steve, I think we are almost cooking from the same recipe book. I've said for a long, long time that if the parents of these kids were made responsible for the actions of their children, they'd probably be a little bit more disciplined. That in itself kind of bothers me, because I imagine that the burden that I believe is at the moment placed on us and the police, would then be placed on Social Services, because I imagine that some of these kids would suffer at the hands of their parents.
ReplyDeleteThe point about children's demands being curtailed, I see the point there, although I have to say that whilst my parents didn't have a lot, I never felt that I really wanted for anything (albeit my needs were probably very simplistic back in my childhood) and whilst I think that my two were the same, they've never really lived in a "have it now" world, yet I do consider they were privileged in a lot of ways, they've turned out well. So, where did this generation of bastard kids come from? I just wonder if there really are families of them, going back generations.
I remember being at school (yes, I can remember that far back!) and being so afraid of another girl who was widely recognised by pupils and teachers as a vile bully. Years later I bumped into her whilst at an open day at the school I wanted to get my children into - I remember stopping in my tracks as I realised it was her and I thought "shit no, surely you've not been allowed to breed" I casually asked my daughter if she knew the kid she had with her and was told that she went to a different school but one of her other pals knew her and she was a "naughty girl" With that in mind, did this all begin a long time ago, has never been properly addressed, but way back when when authority was tougher, it kind of went unnoticed because the odd slap could be handed out - now it is so much worse because there is nothing to deter.
I think the next thing for me to do, is get this blog, and the others that you mention, out into the public domain. As I've said I work in law and by some of the things I've said, I'll probably be easily identified so I have to be careful, but I think it has to be done.
As far as the political element to all this is concerned, I've voted Labour since I was able to vote - have they let me down? Who knows, all I know is I won't be voting again, not for anyone - unless someone can convince me that something will change. And I don't mean change for me personally, I mean in general. I'm sick of picking up the papers and reading of yet another elderly person being beaten to a pulp, another child being abused, another father being beaten to death by a gang of yobs.
I’m from a working class background with an 18 year old daughter and a 15 year old son. Both are bright as buttons and a credit to us, thankfully. I love both dearly.
ReplyDeleteWe divorced a few years ago, but we had long since planted the seeds of what is right and wrong in our kids, and agreed on the separation never to let the welfare of the kids be affected by our circumstances. Discipline, or lack of it becomes the seed of our children’s future behaviour.
I see unruly kids with parents who seem oblivious to their presence let alone the effect they're having on others. Personal responsibility kicks in for most of us, and the embarrassment of offending others always compelled us to adjust their behaviour before it became a pattern. .
I wouldn't worry too much about the burden shift to social services. Even back in my day (I was a copper in the '80s) we would most often find that kids who came to our attention had all too often already come to the notice of social services and other agencies.
The discipline needs to be re-imposed on these parents, by vicarious liability if necessary, to their behaviour doesn't lower the accepted norm in society. How frightening would it be if we got to the stage where law abiding decent folk were in the minority, over run by feral youths and criminals? Then we would have major civil disorder to deal with. The consequences don't bear thinking about, but someone must. A favourite quote on my site seems appropriate :-
"All that's necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke (British Statesman and Philosopher 1729-1797)
My folks went through the second world war. That generation spent most of its prime years focused on survival, so were more appreciative of values and peoples feelings.
Sadly, the rapid recent years of progress seem to have turned an element of the human race into "must have at any cost" merchants, regardless of others. Many see it as their God given right to have what you have without all the pain and heartache it cost you to get it. And if they can't have it, they either take it or slag you off for having it.
It is that culture that needs to change.
I lost hope with Labour some years ago. I saw that the financial state of the nation underpins most of the social issues we have to contend with. I saw that from the three last Labour periods of power, they took office with billions in surplus funds and ended with billions in deficit. In each term, the social unrest was caused by the Governments inability to get the countries finances in order.
I am deeply mistrusting of all the parties too, believing that once they get into power and see the potential of sticking their nose in the trough of the public purse, it all goes tits up.
I try not to express political opinion on our pages, but the Labour Government have given so much ammunition over the past years it’s hard to avoid it. I took the time to locate the Conservative social reform policy, which is worth a read. A copy is on the links in the side bar on our pages. History has shown that Labour wait for the Conservatives to issue their proposals, then quickly issue their own versions of the same suggestion. Labour have conned the voting public so many times down the years that they are the party for the people, yet the evidence is well and truly stacked up against them.
Will the Tories do any better? I honestly don’t know. I don’t seek to influence anyone, as political views are very personal. I really hate injustice of any sort, which is part of the reason I wrote on your site. I just got worn down and absolutely sick and tired of Labours’ flagrant dismissal and disregard for victims.
As an aside, our site has now been noticed and visited regularly by Chris Grayling, the Shadow Home Secretary. On the face of it, he seems to have the right ideas. He's written to me supporting our efforts, so we might have a start at least.
Take care & best wishes
Steve
That's the one thing that can never be taken away from people like us - normal, working class people with children to be proud of. Our daughter graduated last year from a very good University, the first child in our family to have gone to University in the "normal" way, ie: school, college, uni - and my lad works for a law firm but concentrates most of his energies into football and sports study - so I've a lot to be proud of - and I look at them and whilst I know how hard it has been, it's not been THAT difficult, bloody hell, if I can do it, anyone can!!
ReplyDeleteIt's as well Mr Grayling hasn't been on this blog yet - he'd probably say that if I use my industrial language in front of some of these bastard kids, I deserve what I get! ;)
Like you, I hate unfairness of any kind, since being young myself, I've never been able to stand bullying in any shape, and to an extent, this is what the kids around here have been allowed to do, bully me, my family and other people like me - and despite my shocking temper at times, I know I've been powerless to do anything at all, other than what I've already outlined, which hasn't made much difference.
Anyway, today, I have emailed the local conservative MP and asked him for a chat - I can't tell you how much it is going to stick in my throat speaking to them, let alone giving consideration to voting for them, but I know that to waste my vote is wrong, so I'll see what they can tell me that previous lying gits haven't already told me!
And thanks again, your comments have been really interesting and informative.
Best of luck to you!
ReplyDeleteKind regards
Steve
Don't feel bad when a totally bad one gets the final judgement. 1982, I was called out to a fatal accident involving 2 young men on a stolen motorcycle we'd been looking for, for 3 weeks. It had piled into a concrete lamp post. Ambulance was just arriving as I pulled up. Me and Ambo 1 literally peeled victim 1 off the tarmac (think `big pot of jam`). They were two of our biggest pains in the in the arse nasty, violent, thieving scum who'd made peoples lives an utter misery for years. I had officers of mine volunteering to deliver the death message to the two families, that's how bad they were. Yes, it makes you question your own view on humanity, but I can tell you that even as I watched his equally villainous thieving, violent sister (as physically beautiful a young woman as she was) screaming and ranting on the pavement with grief, it left me feeling absolutely compassionless - I was shocked, but then thought of how I could have ended up facing her brother (he was an armed robber my firearms team had once been tasked to arrest). If ever you've seen the film, "Sexy Beast" I felt a bit like I did after the killing of Ben Kingsley's character, Don Logan - we all knew our little world was a better place without him.
ReplyDeleteHogday - that is such a sad story. Queuing to deliver the message? So sad - but I fully understand, I really do. Like I say, to find myself actually laughing that this kid had died and then being outraged to see his family in the local papers, totally bereft, telling the papers of the loss of their "darling little soldier". That caused a fucking riot with the locals, I can tell you. At a time when soldiers are dying in conflict, for them to have referred to this kid as a "soldier" didn't go down well, I can tell you.
ReplyDeleteI left school in 1978 with a burning ambition to be a police cadet. Because my birthday fell at the end of July there was some reason why I couldn't do so (May intakes or something?) So I didn't do it and I often wonder what kind of officer I would have made. I was really disappointed not to have been able to join - I had ideas that I'd be able to change the world....
The year your villain came to grief was the year I got married (yeah yeah almost a child bride!) and I was still thinking about it then. In 1985 my first child was born and I kind of dismissed any further thoughts of joining.
Now I look back and I wonder if I would have made any difference at all. Probably not.
I remember a scrote who was a prolific burglar and car thief, always at it back in the eighties.
ReplyDeleteOne day he was seen trying to nick a car from a multi storey and was chased across city. Thinking he was clever, he vaulted a wall to escape. What the thick twat hadn't realised, was that New Street train station was on the other side of the wall. He landed on the overhead pylons burst into flames and was up there for an age before he fell onto the platform.
A BTP bobby ran to him and threw his ganex raincoat over him to douse the flames. Thoroughly deserved I hear you say. Just as we thought that's another bugger that wont be causing grief on the patch, (the general response was good riddance to the little shit), we heard that a few weeks later he'd made a recovery and was back at it.
This time though he was easier to identify. His incident left him with severe burns to his neck and chest that I can only decsribe as what looked like 2" rope wrapped around his neck and chest.
Imagine our delight, after a burglary where a VCR was stolen when a witness contacted us to say he'd seen a kid with what looked like rope wrapped round his neck carrying a video down the sreet.
I locked him up within the hour and he got six months. A rare case of justice. Ah, the good old days....
Nooo, don't tell me any more!!! I'm actually laughing here when really I should be shocked but I'm not!
ReplyDelete